Comments on: Grammar and Word Choice 101 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/ Ramblings about art, education, Linux and a lot more Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:36:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: John http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-1584 John Thu, 14 Dec 2006 05:19:56 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-1584 I don't think it's a rebound. "Less" has always been used for count nouns, even though many usage advice givers believe that it's incorrect. I don’t think it’s a rebound. “Less” has always been used for count nouns, even though many usage advice givers believe that it’s incorrect.

]]> By: John http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-1583 John Thu, 14 Dec 2006 05:07:27 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-1583 I recommend looking at Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage. They give examples from real writing, tells you want other usage guides say, then lets you make up your own mind. I recommend looking at Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage. They give examples from real writing, tells you want other usage guides say, then lets you make up your own mind.

]]> By: Gordaen http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-730 Gordaen Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:57:52 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-730 Thank you for the input, John. I've updated the Less/Fewer section accordingly. It's interesting that King Alfred used "less" in the way we've been talking about way back when translating Latin to Old English was controversial. I had thought the shift was more recent, but perhaps it's really a rebound back to the way "less" was used prior to the input by Baker. Thank you for the input, John. I’ve updated the Less/Fewer section accordingly. It’s interesting that King Alfred used “less” in the way we’ve been talking about way back when translating Latin to Old English was controversial. I had thought the shift was more recent, but perhaps it’s really a rebound back to the way “less” was used prior to the input by Baker.

]]> By: John http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-726 John Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:17:38 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-726 Here's some background on the less/fewer thing. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.html It seems that this usage of "less" you're objecting to has always been standard. The prescriptive rule apparently comes from someone's misguided opinion in 1770. Here’s some background on the less/fewer thing.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.html

It seems that this usage of “less” you’re objecting to has always been standard. The prescriptive rule apparently comes from someone’s misguided opinion in 1770.

]]> By: Gordaen http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-279 Gordaen Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:12:07 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-279 Perhaps it is time, but I'm not going down without a fight ;) At some point, when the same mistakes are repeated enough, they become "normal." I don't feel that we are quite at that point with less/fewer for formal writing, perhaps for semi-formal writing though. As far as the less/fewer trains, I don't see a direct difference. I think the difference in meaning is contextual. If I was at a train yard, either statement would mean "a smaller number of trains." If I was at a train station, waiting for a train, the statement could mean that trains come by less frequently, but that would seem to be due to the smaller number of trains. This could be a regional difference though; I don't know. Perhaps it is time, but I’m not going down without a fight ;) At some point, when the same mistakes are repeated enough, they become “normal.” I don’t feel that we are quite at that point with less/fewer for formal writing, perhaps for semi-formal writing though. As far as the less/fewer trains, I don’t see a direct difference. I think the difference in meaning is contextual. If I was at a train yard, either statement would mean “a smaller number of trains.” If I was at a train station, waiting for a train, the statement could mean that trains come by less frequently, but that would seem to be due to the smaller number of trains. This could be a regional difference though; I don’t know.

]]> By: John http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-267 John Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:27:42 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-267 If it's changed in the past several centuries, maybe it's time to acknowledge that it's part of normal usage? ok how about this "There are less trains" - the trains are less frequent "There are fewer trains" - the number of trains is reduced If it’s changed in the past several centuries, maybe it’s time to acknowledge that it’s part of normal usage?

ok how about this

“There are less trains” - the trains are less frequent
“There are fewer trains” - the number of trains is reduced

]]> By: Gordaen http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-263 Gordaen Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:15:32 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-263 The traditional view is that "fewer" applies to numbers and count nouns and that "less" applies to mass nouns, degree/extent, non-whole nouns, etc. Of course, that has changed some in the past several centuries. Less than half of a cake Less likely Less surface area Fewer cars Fewer than thirteen players Fewer casualties I agree that there is a trend in moving toward using "less" for plurals, but there's also a trend that involves adding "like" throughout sentences as an expletive. ;) I think this starts to hit on some of what we were talking about in the other post about formal and informal writing/speech. I would rather someone say: "I make fewer mistakes" than "I make less mistakes," but I know their meaning either way. Using "less" where "fewer" would be expected is most common in distances and monetary units. In many cases, either one sounds correct: "You will have fewer/less than two hours to complete this test." I have to admit that I do not see a difference in the meaning of your two "walked 1000 meters" examples. Both seem to mean that the subject walked over 1000 meters yesterday. The traditional view is that “fewer” applies to numbers and count nouns and that “less” applies to mass nouns, degree/extent, non-whole nouns, etc. Of course, that has changed some in the past several centuries.

Less than half of a cake
Less likely
Less surface area
Fewer cars
Fewer than thirteen players
Fewer casualties

I agree that there is a trend in moving toward using “less” for plurals, but there’s also a trend that involves adding “like” throughout sentences as an expletive. ;) I think this starts to hit on some of what we were talking about in the other post about formal and informal writing/speech. I would rather someone say: “I make fewer mistakes” than “I make less mistakes,” but I know their meaning either way.

Using “less” where “fewer” would be expected is most common in distances and monetary units. In many cases, either one sounds correct: “You will have fewer/less than two hours to complete this test.”

I have to admit that I do not see a difference in the meaning of your two “walked 1000 meters” examples. Both seem to mean that the subject walked over 1000 meters yesterday.

]]> By: John http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-258 John Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:13:25 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-258 I don't think the distinction between "less" and "fewer" is as clear cut as you say. in ten words or less less than a thousand dollars less than four days less than five cups of coffee These are all acceptable. Also, whether you use "less" or "fewer" can change the meaning: I walked 1000 meters today. That's fewer than yesterday. I walked 1000 meters today. That's less than yesterday. I don't think there is a tendency to use "fewer" for mass nouns, the trend seems to be only toward using "less" for plurals in general. I don’t think the distinction between “less” and “fewer” is as clear cut as you say.

in ten words or less
less than a thousand dollars
less than four days
less than five cups of coffee

These are all acceptable. Also, whether you use “less” or “fewer” can change the meaning:

I walked 1000 meters today. That’s fewer than yesterday.
I walked 1000 meters today. That’s less than yesterday.

I don’t think there is a tendency to use “fewer” for mass nouns, the trend seems to be only toward using “less” for plurals in general.

]]> By: Common Spoken Errors Become Written Errors at Gordaen’s Blog http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-160 Common Spoken Errors Become Written Errors at Gordaen’s Blog Sun, 22 Oct 2006 03:07:37 +0000 http://blog.gordaen.com/2006/10/01/grammar-and-word-choice-101/#comment-160 [...] It is time for another English lesson. Last time, I covered quite a few of the really common mistakes in speech and on blogs in particular. This time I am going to focus on some of the spelling/grammar errors that result from the human tendency to have a lazy mouth that does not properly pronounce anything. Exciting, I know… [...] [...] It is time for another English lesson. Last time, I covered quite a few of the really common mistakes in speech and on blogs in particular. This time I am going to focus on some of the spelling/grammar errors that result from the human tendency to have a lazy mouth that does not properly pronounce anything. Exciting, I know… [...]

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